Re: Pool Table Holding

Download ForPilots Logbook today! Forpilots Logbook is the award-winning computerized logbook solution. The software features a simple, easy to use user interface that looks just like a paper logbook, but adds advanced statistics and reporting capabilities. Download ForPilots logbook for free!

Flighthawk Air Training wrote:

> Using an FAA approved Multi engine sim we duplicated the 'home brew' holding
> pattern and entry EXACTLY as it was described by one of your posters who
> developed it.

The name of the FAA approved BE-58 simulator, please.

> If you haven't seen the description of the "pool table"
> holding pattern you've missed one of the most bazaar procedures I've ever
> seen described. There's no way that I believe any of you (who are actual
> instructors) are teaching your students any such thing.

I'm not teaching any "pool table" holding pattern.

> I'm interested in seeing what the regional FSDO office has to say about it.

It doesn't matter what they think, but if it suits you.....

> I've gotten quite a few professional opinions already. So far none favorable.

Depending on what you explained to them, they're ignorant, or were
duped.

> We did crank in about 60 knots of cross wind, fairly normal for where we fly in Alaska

Yea, right.

> and we did in fact turn "the wrong way" because the direction of turn wasn't
> specified in the "pool table" holding instructions by your poster.

If the direction of turn wasn't specified, you should have turned right.
If you didn't turn right, you don't know the definition of a standard
holding pattern, which would explain your turning the wrong way.

Which way did you turn?

> If you "fly to the far corner pocket" as the writer suggests, it's diffcult to ID
> the pocket even with a DME without being on an established radial or course
> line and even harder when using only timing and no WCA without the DME. Add
> to that a turn in a direction opposite the holding air space (once again the
> poster does not indicate standard or left turns, the procedure was not
> standard to begin with) and you wind up out of the holding airspace pretty
> quick.

What a crock. Tell me. Under the conditions you have quoted, what was
the size of protected airspace? Which template did you use?

> I never did get what I consider "established in holding" or
> stabilized until I used a standard holding procedure that was at least
> close (wind correction on a selected radial) to one described in the AIM.

To quote macho, "Bullshit".

> As your poster also specified no timing procedure, leg length or holding
> course alignment requirement, we didn't assume any (just ID the far corner
> pocket). We just flew to the points specified as instructed (holding fix and
> far corner pocket) and made turns inbound and outbound as instructed in
> whatever direction we chose because none was specified. We did not exceed
> max allowable holding speed but with the speed and cross wind, flying the
> holding pattern as described seem to result in some haphazard maneuvering.

It's obvious why it was "haphazard" maneuvering.

> We were told simply to turn back toward the fix so that's what we did. The
> holding pattern used was your standard everyday pattern flown off one of the
> local navaids programmed into the box. If you restrict your turns in the
> proper direction you can stay inside the holding space OK, but your pattern
> looks a bit sloppy, as attested to by the graphic plotter because without a
> course line to track you wind up with a pretty good size drift by just going
> back and forth groping around for one fix and homing to the other.

Another bunch of crap. Tell me something. Define a pattern that looks "a
bit sloppy". What are you comparing your pattern to, the race track
pattern?

> You may want to try it yourself ( safely in a sim of course).

Why would doing it in a "sim" be any safer than doing it in the
airplane? What a moron.

> I believe the description is still posted somewhere. If not I'll be happy to send it to
> you so you can try it out. As for me, I don't believe I'll use it on my
> next check flight.

You have to be a pilot first, before you get check flights.

> The regular holding patterns and entries in the AIM work
> just fine for me. I might add that I haven't ruled out the possibility that
> this could all just be a big hoax and I've been duped into wasting my time
> addressing it.

Students of IFR flight, this is an example of why holding patterns come
across as being difficult to do.

Pure, unadulterated, Ignorance.

If you want to learn holding patterns, ignore this bozo and listen up.
I've had enough of this crap.

The holding clearance has a specific format:

1. The word HOLD.
2. A DIRECTION (in relation to the eight cardinal points) FROM the fix
in which you are expected to hold.
3. The name of the FIX.
4. A COURSE, RADIAL, BEARING, or AIRWAY.
5. LEG LENGTH.
6. The DIRECTION of the turns. If none stated, assume right turns.
7. EXPECT FURTHER CLEARANCE (EFC) time. This tells you when to leave the
holding pattern if you lose communication capability while in the hold.

Now, to interpret and comply with a holding clearance, do this.

1. Draw the fix.
2. Draw the holding course, then draw an arrow on this course, pointing
TOWARD the fix.
3. Draw the direction of turn.
4. Put your finger where your position is.
5. Turn the shortest turn to enter the hold.

Example:

Hold southeast of the XYZ VOR on the 130 degree radial, one minute legs.

1. Your position is due south of the VOR.
2. Your position is due East of the VOR.
3. Your position is due West of the VOR.

How many got 1. Direct, 2. Parallel, 3. Tear drop?

How about approaching from due North? Any problems? I didn't think so.

Now, for extra credit, try the same clearance using the DG only.

1. Assume the center (grommet) of the DG is the VOR.
2. Find the desired holding course, on the OUTSIDE of the DG.
3. Trace this IN to the center of the DG.
4. Trace the turn.
5. Your position is always at the bottom of the DG (tail of the aircraft
as drawn on the DG glass).
6. Note your heading, and turn the shortes turn to enter the hold.

If you don't get it the first time, don't worry about it, keep trying.
Go back and draw the holds out on paper. Trust me, you'll get it.

The finer points.

1. If you get an intersection hold and you only have one omni, ask for
two minute legs.
2. After you receive and acknowledge your holding clearance, nothing
prevents you from requesting longer legs, i.e., 10 mile legs, 5 minute
legs, whatever. Just ask. In my 30 years of flying, ATC has been very
accommodating.

And remember, an applicant is only required to remain in protected
airspace. They are not required to use the "70/110" method to enter a
hold.

Norm Melick