Re: Clearance question

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The regs specifically address IFR flight in class G airspace. You must
comply with 91.175 (Takeoff and Landing under IFR) and 91.177 (Minimum
Altitudes for IFR operations). See AIM Section 3. Class G Airspace. 3-3-3
talks about IFR requirements and table 3-3-1 gives IFR altitudes and flight
levels in Class G Airspace.

ATC may clear you for the approach but once you depart controlled airspace
you are on your own. You may continue IFR flight, but you are subject to
published IFR approach procedures, minimums, and other restrictions as
described. In any event the publishing of an approach procedure does not
imply a clearance to fly that approach. In uncontrolled airspace you are
free to fly any published approach you wish, subject to the published
restrictions for that approach. You are not free to make up your own
approach. You may also in uncontrolled airspace cancel IFR and fly VFR to an
airport using class G cloud clearances and minimums.

A related issue is privately owned navigation radios and other aids. You are
also responsible for ensuring that you have permission from the owner if
your approach involves the use of private navigation aids. ATC does not
control those things and the owner may turn them off at any time. ATC will
not ask you if you have the owner's permission to fly the approach. ATC may
clear you for the approach, but they are assuming you have the necessary
permission.

In summary, you may fly IFR in uncontrolled airspace without an ATC
clearance. You may fly any published approach in uncontrolled airspace
without ATC clearance as long as you are IFR and meet all IFR requirements
and restrictions. ATC may clear you for an approach that does not entirely
lie within controlled airspace. They do not care what approach you fly if
the approach is entirely outside of controlled airspace. If you cancel IFR
and fly VFR you have to follow all VFR rules. Publishing an approach is not
an ATC clearance.

It is entirely possible to conduct a flight from beginning to end under IFR
without ever entering controlled airspace or receiving an ATC clearance of
any kind. I know pilots who have actually done this in Canada and Alaska. I
have heard of a conversation that went something like this:

(somewhere in the klag over Alaska)

Old pilot: "You plan on beginning your descent any time soon?"

Newbie: "I haven't been cleared for a lower altitude."

Old pilot: "You don't need a clearance."

Newbie: "I will call and ask for lower."

Old pilot: <heavy sigh>

Newbie: "Center, Stationair NXXXXX requests lower."

<silence>

Newbie: <tries again> <and again>

Old Pilot: "You've been out of radio contact for nearly an hour. Why don't
you descend now?"

Newbie: "oh." <starts descending and preparing to fly published approach>

"John Stricker" <jstricke@NO.russellks.SPAM.net> wrote in message
news:161145C9DDDA5FCA.775C4ABEB1D3B1C2.3623540344FA415C@lp.airnews.net...
| I have a question that is probably more suited to controllers and terps
| guys, but all opinions would be welcome.
|
| For illustration purposes, I'm going to use Great Bend, KS (GBD) as an
| example. The airspace surrounding GBD is Class G up to 700' AGL, just
like
| thousands of other airports around the country. It has several IAP's.
For
| the purpose of the question I'll use the ILS 35 approach. The altitude on
| the plate at the FAF is 3,600' MSL, in class E airspace. (TDZE for 35 is
| 1883' MSL) The DH is 2083' MSL or 200' AGL. Somewhere along the approach
| the aircraft leaves class E airspace and enters Class G airspace.
|
| By definition, ATC can not issue a clearance in Class G airspace. But a
| published approach is a clearance.
|
| The discussion on the list has gone on many times in the past about IFR
| flight in Class G airspace. Basically, if the pilot and aircraft are
| appropriately rated, no clearance is required (or even possible) and it's
| legal. To me, these two things are at odds. On the one hand, ATC can't
| clear an aircraft into Class G airspace to do anything and at the same
time
| the approach plate is doing just that once the controller says "Cleared
for
| the GBD ILS 35 approach".
|
| So, what am I missing? Is there a reg here that says "yeah, but...." that
I
| haven't found? If there isn't, what's to keep an IFR pilot from
descending
| at will to an airport in IFR conditions once clear of the class E
airspace?
| Not that in the case of the ILS approach you would want to get much lower
| than 200' AGL, but take the NDB approach for example, the MDA for that is
| 413' AGL to 613' AGL depending on category. THAT minimum has been busted
| many times in the past (but not by me).
|
| By the same token, when departing an airport like this NORMALLY you get
the
| clearance "Upon entering controlled airspace.......". But sometimes you
| don't. By saying the previous phrase it's my understanding that ATC is
| telling you that they can't clear you to do anything up to 700' AGL on the
| departure, so how can they clear you to do anything below it on the
| approach?
|
| ATC guys, if you have an answer, I'd appreciate it. I asked an FAA
| inspector from the ICT FSDO about it yesterday and he answered "uhhh, I
| don't know but I'll ask the ATC guys when I get back". I won't hold my
| breath for an answer from him. In case you're wondering WHY the question
| came up, for my commercial oral my DPE used me for the FAA to send an
| inspector in and sit in for his review he has to get every few years (3, I
| think) and when we were talking airspace the subject wandered into this
| area. Neither the Inspector or the DPE could tell me how to reconcile the
| two.
|
| --
|
| John Stricker
|
| jstricke@russellks.net
|
|
| I didn't spend all these years getting to the top of the foodchain
| just to become a vegetarian.
|
|
|