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Mike Rapoport wrote:

> Thanks for the well written post on your experiences.
>
> It caught my attention that you are planning to do approaches into Lake
> Tahoe. You should know that the lowest MEA in the area is 12,000' and that
> most of the year, but universally from Oct-May, you will have ice in any
> clouds between 12,000 and the lake. Additionally the missed approach

No. Here is the message section:

>The remaining problem would be if you cruise VFR but have lots
>of crud under you at freezing levels. I intend to avoid this, except
>for some approaches to Lake Tahoe, and then only when the
>weather is bell clear above 2000, not much different than what
>I did under VFR.

I meant 2000 MSL. Ie, IFR only used to get ontop to clear all the way to
tahoe. Forunately tahoe tends to be clear except when it is storming.
Sometimes its both. I departed bell clear in the middle of the lake
with snow storms all around once.
There are actually a couple of things that I don't, that I won't mess with
for the forseeable future:

1. Wind, especially gusts. Leftover from VFR days, I just don't like
landing in significant wind.
2. TS or thunderstorm. Rare in my area.
3. Snow or ice of any kind.

>
> requires a climb to 12,000 (from memory) and you are unlikely to be able to
> do that in a loaded 172 with any ice. The lake is about 6200' and there
> aren't many ways out of the basin below 8400', so after completing the
> approach you would be committed to land with no "out". The lowest passes
> are to the east and are 7300'+ and there is often a lee wave rotor just east
> of the lake if the weather is even "a little bit" bad. Remember that TVL
> minimums are well over 1000'AGL and several miles, if it starts snowing
> heavily and you have to "escape" IFR you will be out of luck, since you
> won't be able to fly the missed with ice. There is no radar coverage over
> the lake at low altitudes.
>
> When we moved here in '97, I received advice similar to what you got from
> your instructor. The advice was not to fly IMC over the Sierra at all, and
> that was with a Turbo Lance which at least had OK altitude performance. I
> flew above the tops many times, taking off from Minden, where the weather is
> generally much better than Tahoe, climbing to 16,000 and crossing the
> mountains. This worked OK most of the time in the Lance but wouldn't work
> in a 172.
>
> Over the Sierra in IMC is certainly no place for a 172 loaded with your
> family, skis ect. I don't want to rain on the parade but you shouldn't even
> consider flying IMC over the mountains in a 172, even "a little bit", there
> just isn't any room for error. Local pilots with known-ice certified 210s
> fly generally VFR when the weather is bad or stay on the ground.
>
> Fortunately the weather is usually good enough for VFR.
>
> It wasn't clear to me what you are considering doing regarding trips to Lake
> Tahoe so I apologize if I misinterpreted your intent.
>

No prob. Actually, my VFR only flights to Tahoe have been pretty successfull.
I think it has a lot to do with knowing when to dodge.
Also, getting grounded in tahoe is not that bad :)

>
> Have fun.
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>
> Scott Moore wrote in message <3A245E81.F60F750F@cisco.com>...
> >Someone emailed me the question, so I thought I would answer it here.
> >Sorry if it sounds to much like "what I did on my vacation".
> >
> >I am a newly rated instrument pilot, about one month. After the rating,
> mostly
> >what I have done is practice approaches in VFR. I did this because I
> figgured
> >what I would most need in real life is an IFR approach after VFR cross
> >country.
> >
> >I have been told, by my instructor, and others, that even here in
> California,
> >that icing basically shuts down the flying from here to march, since the
> MEAs
> >typical in northern California, starting at 5000, put you above the
> freezing
> >level most of the time.
> >
> >My thanksgiving trip was from San Jose, CA to Portland, OR. Thanksgiving
> >leaves a lot of time for conversation or for studying IFR maps and
> thinking.
> >I did both.
> >
> >First, with a light single with no deice, Airmet Zulu becomes paramount,
> >unless thunderstorms are around. Since true thunderstorms are more rare
> >in California/Oregon than ice, thats what I am looking at. Next, Airmet
> >Zulu is a small subset of the freezing "zone" in general. Its usually
> >higher and smaller. My "personal minimum" is as follows:
> >
> >1. No entry to airmet Zulu ice warning areas, no exceptions.
> >2. No entry into the freezing levels unless in clear weather, which I
> >also include to be between layers. Although I have heard of +2..-10
> >being the "ice range", I am at the moment including all levels of
> >+2 or less, or even +4 or less, as being off limits with clouds.
> >
> >During my trip, we went RHV - ACV - HIO - EUG - ACV -RHV
> >at various times and weather conditions. I chose the route to keep
> >low. However, I never got below about +2, and that was at 7500
> >in clear weather.
> >What I have found is that both the freezing level and the cloud
> >layers go up quite a bit after noon, and simply delaying all travel
> >to between the hours of 12:00 to 5:00 local takes away a lot
> >of the problems.
> >
> >The theory I have been working on is as follows. Assuming full IFR
> >is not possible, because the MEAs would put you in ice, you can still
> >fly in calm weather by using the IFR rating to depart or arrive in IFR
> >conditions, but fly enroute in VFR. Flying enroute in VFR gives you
> >two capabilities that are important. First, being VFR gets rid of
> >most possibility of icing. It does not get rid of freezing rain, but
> >that can be avoided by allways reading the weather before flight.
> >For example, the area east of the cascades in Oregon showed
> >freezing rain. We flew exclusively west of there, and thus my
> >coastal route.
> >The other thing that VFR enroute allows is that you can go a LOT
> >lower than MEA enroute, which means that you may be able to
> >avoid freezing levels altogether.
> >
> >Now an extreme version of my "VFR enroute" theory is that you
> >only take off VFR and use IFR as a backup landing method. And
> >that is how I started the flight.
> >
> >The way up was completely uneventfull. We had a ceiling on departure,
> >and I was toying with the idea of a VFR on top clearance driving to
> >the departure airport. I also heard another aircraft doing that.
> >However, the holes I saw during runup and takeoff were both large
> >and stable, so I did a normal departure to VFR conditions on
> >top.
> >
> >Departing Hillsburogh OR late friday was interesting because the
> >weather was closing in rapidly. I noted to my dear wife that there
> >was fog forming on the ground at the same time as the weather
> >was "moving in". Ie., the dewpoint and temperature were crossing,
> >so the fog seemed to be (and was) literally coming from nowhere.
> >
> >Flying south to EUG was towards clear weather, so my chance to
> >get good IFR that day were disappearing :) Do any of you IFR
> >regulars remember both wanting to encounter IFR conditions
> >and dreading it at the same time ? I had the plates for EUG out,
> >and the GPS set up. On approach to EUG, the ATIS said clear
> >and I removed the GPS from approach mode. That was mistake
> >#1.
> >
> >On approach to EUG, I was told that the tower was reporting
> >the field about to tip into IFR, and would I mind switching to
> >the south end runway. I probally suprised them by telling them
> >I would take the IFR approach instead. They barked orders
> >rapid fire. I barked them back. Then I went to activate the
> >approach on GPS. Mistake #2. When I got the approach all
> >set up (only minutes later), it was clear that I had been very
> >close to the final and was passing it was we speak. I assumed
> >there was no way they could have expected me to capture that,
> >and got ready to politely ask the controller why he put me
> >through final. Mistake #3. Before I got the chance, he said
> >"N fieeve Fieeve Seex Yankee Doodal I show you 3 miles
> >west final approach Kk88&*(&(". I said something like "what ?"
> >then he made it abundantly clear I had missed the final.
> >Whilst trying to remember if he actually cleared me to the final,
> >he gave a new vector, and instructions to capture the final.
> >
> >So much for my first approach on my own in "IFR" conditions.
> >Said IFR conditions being ILS in bell clear conditions with the
> >beautifully lit runway in sight, followed by a circiling manever
> >to the south to avoid what looked like a 3 foot wide cloud that
> >insisted on hanging around the ILS approach end north.
> >The most challenging aspect of the approach was flying the
> >needles while the kids in the back had apparently chosen the
> >ideal moment to start a fist fight in the back seat.
> >However, the field DID in fact go WAY IFR within minutes,
> >and our hosts said something like "you landed in that ?"
> >and other head swelling stuff.
> >
> >Sunday we went EUG - ACV - RHV, back home. EUG
> >to ACV was uneventfull, but ACV had been reporting
> >300 ceilings all morning. I figgured it would lift a little, but
> >that I could get a nice IFR approach in with real weather,
> >the runway showing up out of the fog and everything.
> >
> >Yum !
> >
> >Unfortunately, the field had cleared 40 minutes before we
> >arrived, and we landed in bell clear weather. Whatta rip.
> >Then, while eating a calm lunch in the sunshine, something
> >odd happened. Suddenly out the window it was fuzzy, even
> >though there was brillant sunshine. I looked to the west,
> >and we were being assulted by a line of clouds. I looked
> >out the doorway south, and there was literally fog sweeping
> >the parking lot. The field went from dead clear to socked in
> >in about 10 minutes flat.
> >
> >I went to the phone to file an IFR to VFR ontop clearance.
> >You know, the above theory and all. The man informed me
> >that you just file a clearance to depart with VFR on top
> >in the notes, and disregard the destination, since they
> >expect you to cancel.
> >
> >Looking out the window, it had got worse even during the phone call,
> >so I explained to my family that we probally were not going, that even
> >if we had run to the airplane things would not be much different.
> >Now I wanted to get the weather first hand. It was time to find the
> >Unicom operator and ask him if I could come up. When I am not
> >sure of anything, I believe in getting as much information as
> >I can.
> >
> >The Unicom guy is a FAA run position, and the operator has weather,
> >but not controller experience. I told him the field looked zero/zero, and
> >he said "no, see the runway ? If you can see that, you have 400 feet,
> >and thats what the ceiling is. I guess this is an interesting point of
> >order. To me, this would have been, 400 feet RVR with a 0 foot
> >ceiling. Anyways, he told me an interesting story. Arcata was located
> >at the worst place for fog in california, and perhaps the united states,
> >most deliberately. During WWII, they had been losing a lot of planes
> >because of lack of experience with real IFR conditions, and pilots
> >were crashing bombers returning to their bases in England. So ACV
> >was created as a training post for actual IFR conditions. After the
> >war, it was converted for civilain use, and the result was an airport
> >with the worst possible conditions. Even a few miles away in
> >Eureka they get consistently better conditions.
> >My next obvious question was, well, ok, how do you find where the
> >tops are ? He walked over, picked up the mike and asked the plane
> >that had just departed for a tops report. The answer was: 1600.
> >
> >If I have learned nothing else from this trip I have learned that the most
> >usefull thing you can get from a depart IFR situation is a tops report,
> >and it does not matter who gives it. Ask the controller to ask for it.
> >Ask the last departing plane for it. Call center while on the ground and
> >ask for it [this is the subject of an article in the current AOPA
> magazine].
> >
> >Ok, so we had the minimums for the approach. The FAA does not
> >require ANY minimums for departure, but my ear still rings from
> >hearing that you should not take off under the approach minimums,
> >because you might be coming back.
> >Now there is a lot to be said for personal minimums, I know. For
> >example, I had never done an IFR departure AT ALL, and had done
> >only one approach to these kinds of minimums, and that was with
> >an instructor, and basically an accident of weather that closed
> >up more rapidly than we thought. Ok, ok, I am whacking myself
> >with the mouse, so perhaps the IFR personal minimums police
> >will give me a break here (but I doubt it).
> >
> >Anyways, just taxing in 400 RVR is amazing. Honestly, I can't
> >see driving in that kind of weather. I announced that I was taxing
> >to the runup area, then turned all the lights on and prayed that
> >no one would hit me while taxing. Indeed, the chatter on the radio
> >showed that some poor soul was in fact lost on the airport.
> >
> >Remembering what all the kind folks here have said, I called center
> >while still in runup, engine idle, to get my clearance. Mistake #1.
> >I (actually we, me and instructor) have allways filed IFR with
> >takeoff times that we knew weren't accurate, relying on the
> >1 hour time to hold the flight plan on file. I have never really
> >given the process much thought, but we get the clearance, then
> >do runup, say "ready for release", then some time later, we
> >get it and go.
> >
> >Well, center, ontop of the situation, immediately launches into
> >the most complex departure clearance I have ever got. Its
> >a real monologe, and I was more expecting something like
> >"clearance on request". So I am fishing out a pen, putting the
> >paper on top of the checklist and waiting for him to draw
> >a breath. I'm sure he did not appreciate having to repeat it,
> >but did not show it. Controllers are a pretty level bunch of
> >guys.
> >
> >Anyways, I go back to unicom and do the runup. The DP I got
> >was not bad, I actually understood it, and I have never actually
> >DONE a DP. What is even more wonderus, the GPS knows
> >the DP !!! There it is, etched in magenta ! It is going to tell me
> >exactly what to do, and when to do it. Life is good.
> >About the time I am happy about this, comes the call. "N feer
> >seeex Happy Cracker, you on frequency ?". "well, seems that
> >thar controller guy be hoppin' mad, and is holding up a
> >heavy fer ya". Shit. Apparently getting that clearance implied
> >that I was ready RIGHT NOW. I called center and told them
> >I would be ready in 5, let the heavy go. He told me they
> >did the missed. I have to admit the idea that some heavy
> >had trouble with this gave me pause. What would you have
> >done ?
> >
> >Anyways, without further event, I did the runup and takeoff.
> >Flying "on the gauges" is to me quite an interesting game,
> >even for short periods. With all that training not to trust
> >your senses, and how the most likely accident is inability to
> >recover from unusual attitudes, results in the feeling like you
> >are walking a tightrope over the Grand Canyon. I'm watching
> >the instruments like trying to go for a new high score at
> >Pac Man. Leaning forward. Death grip on the wheel. The
> >attitude needs to be perfect. I need a good rate of climb. Did
> >I hear the engine change tone ? I can't fixate on the airspeed.
> >Have to keep moving. I am going to break something, I have
> >to relax. There goes the airspeed again.
> >
> >In all this we are on the GPS course. I don't know how people
> >live without HSIs. This is a nice long leg of the DP, and we
> >are tracking it. Long time before we have to turn. Good, good
> >good. "Cesspool N bark bark bark, turn left 110". Shit ! Why the
> >hell give me a DP if you aren't going to let me follow that ?
> >He is asking me for tops reports. Good luck.
> >
> >We did not break out at 1600. We didn't break out at 2000.
> >Nor 3000. Finally about 3400 we see a single part of the fog
> >get brighter, and the sun is breaking through. Its completely
> >fake, we are not breaking out at all. The sun goes away.
> >I don't care. My world is the instruments. What is going on
> >outside is a distraction, a cheap trick. I'll look when I see
> >consistent blue sky.
> >
> >At 3700 we are flying in and out, through broken tops. My
> >wife is happy. I am not fooled. I want to be clear. Stay on
> >the dials. Now time for a few rapid fire mistakes to break
> >the tension.
> >
> >Mistake #2. I tell center we have cleared. Understandably,
> >I wanted to announce success, and share this with the world.
> >But this question has a hook to it. He wants to discuss what
> >I am going to do now. There are still clouds hitting me, this
> >is not a good time, go away.
> >
> >Ok, he gave me an altitude of 9000 if not in the clear. Mistake
> >#3. I should have sat, back there, on the ground, thinking
> >about this carefully. Because taking 9000 was a bald faced
> >lie. There was no way I was prepared to cruise at 9000
> >in clouds. My math, their math and the OAT gauge all
> >agreed that I would be frozen by then.
> >
> >So here, still going in and out of clouds, I was not prepared
> >to give the answer I really wanted "N fork spoon knife,
> >requests cancel IFR to VFR". I knew that there was an
> >MEA reason for the 9000. So I just said "will cruise
> >VFR at 5500". Hey, I got the east west rule right at least.
> >Long pause. Ok, perhaps a short pause. "N bite me bite me,
> >there is no way I can give you that clearance".
> >
> >However, this nonsense had wasted enough time that I was
> >now clear, and so I did, indeed cancel to a nice, safe VFR
> >following.
> >
> >If the controller thought I was a complete moron at this time,
> >he did a good job of hiding it.
> >
> >Well, for all two of you that had the patence to sit through this,
> >what hath I learned ?
> >
> >First, getting clearances in advance is cool, but this needs to be
> >added to an amended take off time. And that take off time needs
> >to be generously in the future.
> >
> >Second, there is no point to calling "on top" until you are well clear,
> >relaxed and having coffee on top, so you can make the decision
> >whether or not to stay IFR.
> >
> >Third, tops can change hecka fast. Have a number in the back of
> >your mind, that if you don't reach on top by, you will ask to
> >shoot the approach back to the airport.
> >
> >I realize that the "VFR enroute" theory at the beginning of this
> >is going to piss a lot of you off. The standing theory here seems
> >to be that if you have any doubts, don't go. Thats fine, but based
> >on that, I would never go.
> >
> >On the left coast, we seem not to be able to fly IFR all the way
> >from takeoff to touchdown unless you are in the spring or summer
> >months. My instructor was explicit about this. Put away your
> >ticket until March, except for those "good days".
> >
> >What I am finding is that the most common situation is
> >several cloud layers. Sometimes pulling out my 2000 or below
> >flying skills works well. However, in most, or even all sea
> >level California conditions, you have a freezing level in the
> >daytime of at least 3000-5000 even on "cold" days. Being
> >able to depart IFR to VFR on top can get you up in the clear,
> >and if it doesn't work, you go back down, all done in temperatures
> >well above freezing. On the other end, coming from VFR enroute
> >to an IFR destination means that you come down to an approach
> >well above freezing.
> >
> >The remaining problem would be if you cruise VFR but have lots
> >of crud under you at freezing levels. I intend to avoid this, except
> >for some approaches to Lake Tahoe, and then only when the
> >weather is bell clear above 2000, not much different than what
> >I did under VFR.
> >
> >Another thing I got from the trip is that practice in actual beats
> >the hell out of dull VFR approaches. But this avenue has allways
> >been available to me. Most of the coastal airports lie in fog this time
> >of year even while the inland is clear. So you can take off and
> >fly VFR, then do approaches and departures to minumums, even
> >on sunny days (just as ACV was originally meant to serve).
> >
> >I suppose this summer I will get some hard enroute IFR. Until
> >then I think I have discovered a new hobby of practicing
> >AP and DP in actual. Why practice in conditions better than
> >what you will actually take trips in ?
> >
> > Scott Moore
> >
> >--
> >Scott A. Moore is samiam@cisco.com
> >
> >I can't do it. So you can't do it either. QED.
> >
> >
> >
> >

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